{"id":56373,"date":"2021-02-28T17:27:28","date_gmt":"2021-03-01T01:27:28","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/energi.media\/?p=56373"},"modified":"2021-03-01T08:55:37","modified_gmt":"2021-03-01T16:55:37","slug":"usa-china-europe-and-the-clean-energy-arms-race","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/energi.media\/energy-climate-student-resources\/usa-china-europe-and-the-clean-energy-arms-race\/","title":{"rendered":"USA, China, Europe and the clean energy &#8220;arms race&#8221;"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><strong>Rating<\/strong>: High school and post-secondary<\/p>\n<p><strong>Summary<\/strong>: Markham interviews Barbara Finamore, senior attorney and Asia Director at the Natural Resources Defense Council, about her Oxford Energy Institute article, &#8220;Cleantech innovation in China and its impact on the geopolitics of the energy transition.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Related links<\/strong>:<\/p>\n<ol>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.oxfordenergy.org\/wpcms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/02\/OEF-126.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Cleantech innovation in China and its impact on the geopolitics of the energy transition<\/a><\/li>\n<li>\n<p class=\"entry-title\"><a href=\"https:\/\/energi.media\/energy-climate-student-resources\/time-for-the-united-states-to-compete-with-china-in-global-clean-energy-finance\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Time for the United States to compete with China in global clean energy finance<\/a> &#8211; anchor story interview with Dr. Johannes Urpelainen, Johns Hopkins University<\/p>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<p class=\"entry-title\"><a href=\"https:\/\/energi.media\/energy-climate-student-resources\/china-rises-and-america-is-nervous\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">China rises and America is nervous<\/a> &#8211; anchor story interview with Reuters energy columnist John Kemp<\/p>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<p class=\"entry-title\"><a href=\"https:\/\/energi.media\/news\/china-to-launch-subsidy-free-solar-wind-power\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">China to launch subsidy-free solar, wind power<\/a> &#8211; Energi Media article<\/p>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<p class=\"entry-title\"><a href=\"https:\/\/energi.media\/news\/chinas-e-bus-stock-to-surpass-1-million-mark-by-2023\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">China\u2019s e-bus stock to surpass 1 million mark by 2023<\/a> &#8211; Energi Media article<\/p>\n<\/li>\n<li>\n<p class=\"report-title\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.brookings.edu\/techstream\/how-global-tech-executives-view-u-s-china-tech-competition\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">How global tech executives view U.S.-China tech competition<\/a> &#8211; by Christopher A. Thomas\u00a0and\u00a0Xander Wu, Brookings Institute blog post<\/p>\n<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/share.transistor.fm\/e\/b39fcea6\" width=\"100%\" height=\"180\" frameborder=\"no\" scrolling=\"no\" seamless=\"\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>This interview has been lightly edited.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Markham Hislop:\u00a0<\/strong><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Welcome to another episode of Energi Talks, the podcast where we discuss global energy issues and <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">trends with experts from around the world. On this episode, I&#8217;ll be talking to Barbara Finamore, a senior\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">attorney and Asia director at the Natural Resources Defense Council. She recently wrote a paper for the <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oxford Energy Institute titled, &#8220;Clean tech innovation in China and its impact on the geopolitics of the <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">energy transition.&#8221;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Can you explain why you wrote the study?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Barbara Finamore<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sure. I was asked by the Oxford Institute for Energy Studies to participate in a special issue that they just <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">published in February about the geopolitics of the energy transition. And they gave me a few topics to\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">choose from. And I chose the topic of clean energy innovation because it really interests me. I&#8217;ve been <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">working in China for over 30 years and have watched the growth of innovation in China, as well as the\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">challenges. And given the renewed interest in clean energy innovation in the United States with the\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Biden administration. I thought it would be really interesting to examine what is going on in China right\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">now, as well as in the US and in Europe on clean energy innovation and that competition that is really <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">heating up right now.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Markham Hislop<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I ran across your essay for Oxford Energy Institute and it reminded me of a paragraph from the Biden\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">climate plan that I read before the November election. I&#8217;m going to read it because it&#8217;s germane to what\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">we&#8217;ll be talking about today. So here&#8217;s what the plan says. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">&#8220;Unfortunately, today the Trump\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">administration is allowing America to fall behind in the clean energy race for the future. In 2017, China\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">invested $3 in renewable energy for every dollar in America, giving China an edge on the technologies of\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">tomorrow that will generate well-paying jobs. By 2030, the Biden administration will put the United\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">States back in the driver&#8217;s seat, making America, the world&#8217;s leader in clean energy research, investment\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">commercialization, manufacturing, and exports.&#8221;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That is exactly what your paper was talking about. The\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">competition between China, the US, and you added Europe.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Barbara Finamore<\/strong>: <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s correct. It&#8217;s a sea change, as you can imagine, from the last four years under the\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Trump Administration when every effort was made to roll back funding for research and development <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and put tariffs on solar panels and impede the growth and innovation of clean energy in every single\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">way possible.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Markham Hislop<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now I have an observation. We&#8217;ll see if you agree with it. There is a faction in the oil and gas industry\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">worldwide, but it&#8217;s particularly strong in Canada in the United States which really believes that the\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">energy transition is driven by ideology. It is not a thing that is driven by technology and capital and markets, <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and always driven by the ideology of the radical eco-activists. And if that is true, then its <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">ideology turned into green politics, which then get turned into green <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">policy. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So if you can go back and you can unwind that and change the politics, you then get <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">control of the government levers, and you can change the policy and stop the energy transition and <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">effectively preserve the fossil fuel status quo. And that I think essentially what <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">was going on during the Trump Administration. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What do you make of that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Barbara Finamore<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The fossil fuel industry is going to have to evolve if they want to survive in this net-zero carbon world. There are<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> over 120 countries that have already adopted these net-zero energy goals, either for climate\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">neutrality or for carbon neutrality. And that includes China. I don&#8217;t know if you can argue successfully\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that the announcement by President Xi Jinping, that China will become a climate-neutral country by\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">2060 results from pressure by the radical environmental left. I think countries around the world are\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">increasingly realizing that climate change is real and that it&#8217;s happening now. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, we just finished a\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">year that was tied for the warmest year on record with 2016, we just ended the warmest decade on\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">record. There was $260 billion of damage worldwide from climate-induced, severe weather impacts,\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">threatening food, security, water security, and people&#8217;s health all over the world. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That is real. It&#8217;s not\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">just something that&#8217;s going to happen. Climate change is real and it&#8217;s happening now.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Markham Hislop<\/strong>: Se<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">rendipitously President Biden and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of Canada made an\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">announcement yesterday that is directly applicable to your paper. And what they agreed on was this: a <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">comprehensive approach to a climate plan and clean energy. And there is clearly an attempt here and the\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">intent by the Biden Administration to bind Canada closer to the US in terms of supply chains and markets. If you&#8217;ve got a\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">European bloc, now you&#8217;ve got a North American bloc. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;ll give you just a few examples of what\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">they talked about. So they agreed to work together to build the necessary supply chains, to make\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Canada and the United States, global leaders in all aspects of battery development and production. And\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">you mentioned in your paper that China currently leads [in battery production], but Europe is right on its heels and has <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">every intention of taking the lead. And here you have Biden clearly getting and I guess\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Trudeau gets it. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This seems like a response to the challenge from China and Europe.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Barbara Finamore<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is an example of a virtuous cycle in competition because countries want blocs. Like you say, <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">North America now wants to control the new technologies of the future. And the supply chain is a key\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">element of that. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">China already controls virtually every aspect of the supply chain of lithium-ion batteries.\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it has the potential to restrict access to those minerals to other countries if it wishes. In fact, just <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">recently, China announced that it is considering restricting access to rare earth metals that are a key\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">part of the supply chain for many clean technologies, restricting access to those to the US in retaliation\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">for sales of military technology to Taiwan. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This could really put a wrench in the energy transition. So it&#8217;s\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">not surprising that countries are really starting to think about how they can ensure their own supplies of\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the critical minerals and metals that are needed for batteries and other technologies.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Markham Hislop<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, it just occurred to me that if you consider Biden&#8217;s decision around the Keystone XL pipeline &#8211; because of\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">course, he cancelled it as he promised, he would &#8211; you can see his attention shifting away from the integrated <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">fossil fuel energy system that the US and Canada created over the last 60 or 70 years. And now\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">it&#8217;s almost as if there&#8217;s going to be another integrated industry that&#8217;s around clean energy. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">you mentioned there&#8217;s hydroelectric power coming from Quebec into your state\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">where you live, in Maine. Manitoba and other hydro-rich provinces are also sending exporting<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> clean energy to the USA and that&#8217;s a big part of this agreement as well.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Barbara Finamore<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s very good news. I think it makes sense. I think it&#8217;s a win-win proposition for both countries and for\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the climate. There are in my mind, every country has its own competitive advantage. And you&#8217;ve just\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">mentioned a number of ways in which Canada has a competitive advantage. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember also when\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">fuel cell vehicles first became popular about 20 years ago, it was Ballard in Canada that was\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">really leading the way. I led some study tours for Chinese experts to Canada to visit Ballard and learn\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">more about what they were doing on fuel cell vehicles. So Canada&#8217;s interest and dominance in this\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">technology are quite well recognized. And in fact, China, as you may know, has determined that it is going\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to put a lot of resources into developing its fuel cell vehicle industry right now. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I feel like there\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">doesn&#8217;t have to be blocs. However, Markham. There is room for all countries to not just compete <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">with each other, but to find ways that are of benefit to everyone, into accelerating our energy transition.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Markham Hislop<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, that leads me to, it&#8217;s a couple of questions ahead of where I was going to ask you about that, but\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">let&#8217;s go there because you make a point in your conclusion. And I thought this was really insightful is that\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the blocs or the countries will definitely compete. They&#8217;re setting themselves up to be competitive, but <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">at the same time, it&#8217;s very important for there to be strategic cooperation. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That would mean [multilateral] <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">agreements. That would mean diplomacy. That would mean global institutions like the world trade <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">organization that all have to be respected and made to function properly for this to work optimally.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Have I summed up your conclusion correctly?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Barbara Finamore<\/strong>: <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, you have. I do believe it&#8217;s essential to have strategic cooperation as well as competition. And there\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">are so many ways in which that can happen. You mentioned a number of them that are really important\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">on the global level international institutions, but even bilaterally and multilaterally, a lot of countries\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and States and provinces are starting to issue targets for phasing out the internal combustion engine\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">vehicle. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For example, now, if countries can coordinate those types of high level targets that sends a\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">signal to the automobile industry, that it&#8217;s in their interest to increase their investment in zero <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">energy vehicles because the markets are harmonized and you don&#8217;t have to develop certain kinds of\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">vehicles for one market and others for another. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And that type of thing is well within the interest of every\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">country to coordinate and harmonize.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Markham Hislop<\/strong>: <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Would you say that in fact in terms of electric vehicles that that has already taken place, it may not have <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">taken place formally though. You may have a different view on this. A lot of it has taken place in the\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">marketplace and in the industry because all of these automakers are working in those three big <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">markets<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Barbara Finamore<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s already starting to take place. And I think one of the policy decisions that China made has really\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">made an enormous difference because China is the largest automobile market of any kind in the world.\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And a few years ago, they issued a regulation that said that any foreign automaker that wished to\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">produce or sell their vehicles in China had to meet a certain percentage quota of what they call new\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">energy vehicles, which could be all electric, hybrid or fuel cell vehicles. Otherwise they would not gain\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">access to the world&#8217;s largest market. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And almost immediately you saw all of the major auto\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">manufacturers announce new investments, new lines, new types of new energy vehicles, they are\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">developing. So, yes, it&#8217;s already happening right now, but a lot more can be done. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">China was considering <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">an outright ban on internal combustion engine vehicles by 2035, as you&#8217;re seeing in some other <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">jurisdictions, but they stopped short of that. And if they were to coordinate such announcements with\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">other countries, I think that you would see the percentage of these zero energy vehicles just explode.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Markham Hislop<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What do you think the odds are that China, Europe and North America will announce that type of <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">strategic cooperation in the near future?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Barbara Finamore<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think not in the near future, we&#8217;ve got a situation where the United States has only just rejoined the\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Paris Agreement. It is not on track to meet its climate commitments under the Paris Agreement. The US, <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think, has a long way to go to reestablish trust in its pledges and to reestablish its climate leadership <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">before it can get other countries to work together. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That said, China president Xi Jinping has said <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">numerous times that he believes in global environmental governance that he believes in multilateralism. So I do think that the chances of such an announcement for example, are greater, if it is with\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">a number of countries, including the EU and not just the US- China, which was so fruitful in the past, but <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">maybe not right now.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Markham Hislop<\/strong>: L<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">et&#8217;s talk about four key areas of innovation that you flag for watching as the race heats up<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and they are solar power, offshore wind, batteries, and hydrogen. And what make you choose those?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Barbara Finamore<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Each of these technologies is key to the global energy transition. Number one, number two China has <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">led by far the world in the first generation of each of these technologies. They lead the world. They have\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">40% of all solar installed capacity, over third of all wind global installed capacity. They lead the world by\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">far over half of all the electric vehicles in the world, and also the largest producer of hydrogen. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But these <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">are first-generation technologies, and they&#8217;re going to need breakthroughs if the cost is going to\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">continue to go down, if they&#8217;re going to need breakthroughs to resolve some of the challenges that are\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">inherent in the first-generation technology. So that&#8217;s why I chose those four, also because the US and\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Europe recognized their importance in the next stage of the energy transition. And they&#8217;re all clamoring\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to take the lead.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Markham Hislop<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, let&#8217;s talk about another area where China, the U S and Europe will compete and that&#8217;s finance and\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">manufacturing. And I interviewed professor Johannes Uperlinen<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u00a0from Johns Hopkins university a couple <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">of months ago. And he talked about how the US had fallen behind China in terms of green financing &#8211; <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the financing of solar power and wind power, those kinds of projects &#8211; but it was imperative that it <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">regained that lead. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it looked like in his opinion, that Biden had correctly identified that as an issue.\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I think there was an announcement of a green bank that&#8217;s coming, or some kind of green funding\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">institution. How important is access to finance for the Americans and <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Canadians to catch up to China?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Barbara Finamore<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">China has made it very easy or relatively easy I should say. For companies to get access, to financing for <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">solar and wind, they&#8217;ve also developed a very comprehensive, or at least the beginnings of a very\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">comprehensive green finance system, which is includes things like green bonds, green loans, green\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">investments, and so forth. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And there&#8217;s really like so many other things in China due to the influence of\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">one person. We often think of China as a monolithic country, where decisions come from faceless\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">bureaucrats. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There is one fellow named MaJune who really has led the way in development of a green\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">finance ecosystem in China. The US does have a long way to go to catch up. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was very <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">pleased to see that last December, even before the Biden administration took office, there was an\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">omnibus spending bill passed by Congress that extended tax breaks for solar power and wind.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And this has been one of the key problems is that these incentives are only issued for one or two years\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">at a time. And that&#8217;s not enough of a time period to really galvanize the levels of investment that are\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">needed. And other types of incentives can be included as well. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like for hydrogen, if you look at Biden&#8217;s\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">climate plan, what he wants to do is develop energy storage. For example, at one-tenth the cost of <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">lithium-ion batteries, he wants to lead the world in hydrogen development. Well, coming up with tax <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">incentives like that, and green financing mechanisms, it&#8217;s going to make a huge difference because\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">financing you are right financing for clean technologies has been quite a struggle in the United States to <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">date.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Markham Hislop<\/strong>: L<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">et&#8217;s talk about the second one (manufacturing) because you make the point in your paper that <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">China is the factory to the world. I think it was 60% of all goods, if I remember correctly, are <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">manufactured in China. And what that means is that the United States and Canada are behind <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">in terms of their manufacturing capacity. And this gets back to the\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Biden, Trudeau announcement mentioning supply chains, which are absolutely critical in terms of supporting growth in <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">manufacturing. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What are your thoughts on that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Barbara Finamore<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a complex issue, Markham, because manufacturing and mining and processing minerals for clean\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">energy technology causes huge environmental impacts. And I believe that one of the reasons that China\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">has attained dominance in supply chain mining, manufacturing &#8211; processing even more so &#8211; is that it&#8217;s <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">willing to accept those environmental risks. There used to be more of that manufacturing and mining\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">going on in the United States, but those environmental impacts are not as tolerated, which is a good\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">thing. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so my question is, number one, how realistic is it for the United States to catch up to China in\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">manufacturing with its strict environmental regulations, which believe me, I think China should have,\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and must have in order to make this sustainable in the future. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Secondly, how is the USA going to catch <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">up with China in for example, solar panel manufacturing, when the average solar panel manufacturing\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">facility in China is four times the size of the United States, and even developing the mines for critical\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">minerals, how long is it going to take for the US to catch up to China in its ability to provide a cost-<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">effective, cost-competitive source of these minerals?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m not sure that that&#8217;s possible. And that leads me to wonder whether we have time for this type of <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">clean technology decoupling, where every country tries to develop its own source of the supply chain,\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">its own manufacturing facilities. Do we have time for that given our climate emergency?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Or, should we <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">consider the comparative advantages of each country and find ways for them to cooperate in\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">developing those clean technologies? In this respect, I would argue that it&#8217;s the West that has led\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and still has a considerable lead in innovation, in the development of the new technologies, but it&#8217;s\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">China that has that ability to manufacture at scale and also to innovate in the manufacturing process in a\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">way that brings down the cost of these still very expensive next generation technologies. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Is there a way <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to combine the strategic advantages of different countries in a way that&#8217;s going to allow us to reach net-<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">zero in time? I think you&#8217;re going to need things like a very, very strong intellectual property system or <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">intellectual property insurance mechanism. That&#8217;s going to make it possible for that level of cooperation\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and given our political situation right now, it&#8217;s going to take some doing to get there.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Markham Hislop<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Does the world have the institutional framework to foster the kind of cooperation that you are talking <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">about?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Barbara Finamore<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Not right now, not right now, but it&#8217;s possible. I think there was a clean US China clean energy research\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">center under the Obama administration that fostered collaboration between researchers, scientists, and <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">companies in the US and China in three areas of technology carbon capture and storage, building <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">efficiency and electric vehicles. And the very innovative part of that collaboration was that the two\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">countries developed a mechanism for sharing the intellectual property of the technologies that were <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">developed. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, it can be done. That was at a rather small scale, but it does show that this type of\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">collaboration can be done and it was quite successful.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Markham Hislop<\/strong>: <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Let&#8217;s get to your conclusion. I want to read some excerpts from it. One of which is that <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Europe and the US are now racing to take the lead in developing next-generation technologies. And if <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">they&#8217;re racing, is China likely to catch up in that innovation race? Or is, as you say, China&#8217;s role likely to be<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">in the manufacturing and Europe and the U S leading innovation. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What&#8217;s your take?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Barbara Finamore<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, what we&#8217;ve seen over the years in those first-generation wind and solar and electric vehicle <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">technologies is that China basically acquired the new technologies from the West. And whether that was\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">from a licensing or, you know, buying the technology or acquiring it through forced joint ventures or\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">intellectual property theft, whatever they took those technologies and then they brought them to scale. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s not clear to me. I think that&#8217;s a good model with given those strong intellectual property protections <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I talked about, but I&#8217;m not sure whether that type of collaboration is possible now. So you&#8217;ve got <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">something like the electrolyzers for producing green hydrogen from renewable energy. China already\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">leads in the traditional alkaline electrolyzers but those are not as effective as the PEM electrolyzers in\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">producing green hydrogen. The West already has that technology, but it&#8217;s extremely expensive because\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">nobody&#8217;s manufacturing it at scale.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But if China is considering trying to develop that own technology internally, it&#8217;s going to take a lot\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">of time because even though China is growing in its ability to innovate it still lags behind the West. And\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">similarly, the West wants to become its own manufacturer of hydrogen, but I doubt that it&#8217;s going to be\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">able to get to the requisite scale in time and to be able to bring down the cost. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, that&#8217;s why in my\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">paper I said I wasn&#8217;t sure who&#8217;s going to win this race and how long it&#8217;s going to take.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Markham Hislop<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We talked earlier about how there has to be competition and strategic cooperation at the same\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">time. And I think it&#8217;s fair to say that the Trump administration&#8217;s approach to multilateral relationships, <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">trade diplomacy, was not conducive to resolving the issue that we&#8217;re <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">dealing with today.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Are things so damaged that it will take years and years and years to fix?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><strong>Barbara Finamore<\/strong>:\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It will take time to fix. I do not think it will take years and years to fix. Biden appointed Senator John\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kerry to be his international climate Envoy. Kerry gave a speech very recently in which he said, he\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">believed that despite the tensions between the US and China, both countries share an interest in\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">collaboration on climate change. And that type of discussion should proceed independently of all other <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">discussions and diplomacy in areas where the two countries differ. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The trouble was the <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">next day, the Chinese foreign minister disagreed. And he said, no, you cannot separate out climate <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">change from all these other issues, they have to be considered together. But what I&#8217;ve seen in my 30 <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">years of working in China is that the views of the foreign ministry are often more hard-line than that of\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">the government agencies and the researchers and others on the ground. <\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so I suspect that you&#8217;re <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">going to find ways in which you&#8217;re going to see ways in which this cooperation does begin perhaps as <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">more of a bottom up way. And Biden himself has announced that he&#8217;s going to have an international <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">climate meeting hosting it in April on earth day. And hopefully that will begin the process of\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">bringing the countries back together on climate and finding areas of mutual interest. And it may be\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that it&#8217;s the multilateral approach that&#8217;s more effective.<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<div class=\"mh-excerpt\"><p>Rating: High school and post-secondary Summary: Markham interviews Barbara Finamore, senior attorney and Asia Director at the Natural Resources Defense Council, about her Oxford Energy Institute article, &#8220;Cleantech innovation in China and its impact on <a class=\"mh-excerpt-more\" href=\"https:\/\/energi.media\/energy-climate-student-resources\/usa-china-europe-and-the-clean-energy-arms-race\/\" title=\"USA, China, Europe and the clean energy &#8220;arms race&#8221;\">[Read more]<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>","protected":false},"author":3,"featured_media":56389,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"give_campaign_id":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[2274],"tags":[2405,13,91,120,484,541,536,597,50],"class_list":{"0":"post-56373","1":"post","2":"type-post","3":"status-publish","4":"format-standard","5":"has-post-thumbnail","7":"category-energy-climate-student-resources","8":"tag-barbara-finamore","9":"tag-canada","10":"tag-china","11":"tag-clean-energy","12":"tag-cleantech","13":"tag-europe","14":"tag-manufacturing","15":"tag-trade","16":"tag-united-states"},"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.5 - 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